Aug. 4, 2021

Interview With Nir Bashan

The Wolf And The Shepherd sit down with Nir Bashan and discuss creativity.

Nir Bashan is a world-renowned creativity expert. He has taught thousands of leaders and individuals around the globe how to harness the power of creativity to improve profitability, increase sales, improve customer service and ultimately create more meaning in their work.   Nir has spent the last two decades working on a formula to codify creativity.

That formula is found in The Creator Mindset, which has been translated into two languages. He was one of the youngest professors ever selected to teach graduate courses at the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena and also taught undergraduate courses at the University of California at Los Angeles.

He has worked on numerous albums, movies, and advertisements with famous actors and musicians ranging from Rod Stewart to Woody Harrelson.  His work on creativity has won a Clio Award and was nominated for an Emmy.

Nir is the founder and CEO of The Creator Mindset LLC, a company that conducts workshops, consulting, coaching, and keynote speeches at conferences and corporate events. His clients include AT&T, Microsoft, Ace Hardware, NFL Network, EA Sports, Suzuki, Activision and jetBlue.  Nir lives in Orlando, Florida, with his wife, young son, and two Bernedoodles named P-Paws and Waylon Jennings.



get away from those sheep bollocks

you're listening to the wolf and the

shepherd podcast

broadcasting from fort worth in the

great state of texas

now get ready for this episode of the


and the shepherd welcome to this episode

of the wolf and the shepherd today we


with us near beshawn near so glad you

could join us today

hey thanks for having me man this is

going to be fun

thank you for coming on the show uh now


i think best well known for your book

the creator mindset

it must be popular because even the

shepherd had heard of it i had heard of

your book

and i've only read what now four books

because you made me read this book i

felt like it was a school assignment and

that was

really not very nice of you to force me

to read i made him read the bible twice

this is

like really only the third book you've

actually read you've read four books but

one of them twice but you told me that

counted well it does count okay thank


yeah and i watched a few summaries

on youtube because i didn't have time to

read a book over the weekend like

because i had my son and he allows me to


maybe about 15 seconds at a stretch so

going back interesting yeah i know that

well now

um before we start on your book

and part my research here i found a

website the creator mindset

63 tools to unlock the secrets to

innovation growth and sustainability

now every other link i found said 92


to unlock now the

book with 63

only got four stars in reviews but the

one with 92 got

just under 5 stars so i'm assuming there

were a few important ones they missed

out yeah that's funny yeah so

what happened was when we were putting

the the book together

um the different editing stages

of the book had different amounts of

tools in it

and so what ended up happening was


the later edits or whatnot

more tools came about and

mcgraw-hill has to put out a title of

the book

almost uh just about a year before it's


and so a year before it was published

you know looking through the manuscript

or whatever it was

63 tools and then we started to do more

edits and get really into the

the nuts and bolts of the different

chapters and it

it creeped up so it's at 92 right now

but you know who knows if we do another

edit it might be 93.

right now it's 92 tools yeah i mean

that's more tools than i have in my

toolbox at home

and i've got one of those big stand-up

toolboxes too i don't even think i have

92 tools in there well now you've got

one spanner on level two i've seen it

yeah the garage yeah but that's the one

i use for a hammer also yeah that's true

now um i actually thought the reason was


once the publisher had given you a firm

deal that they were going to pay you per

point you could come up with

you went up like 30 overnight yeah

that would be awesome yeah no it's it's

a it's a

editing uh sort of thing that that pops

up sometimes on

on books and listen i wanted to do like

101 tools

and my editor at mcgraw was like

absolutely not

i was like why it has a nice ring to it

like let's call it the creator mindset

you know 101 tools to help you

become more creative she's like are

there 101 in there

i said no there's 92 now you know with

all the edits that we've made the final

book is going to have

92 and she was like absolutely not

101. yeah but you too but that 101 does

have that nice ring to it it's like 101

ways to do this and 101 ways to do that

but i will tell you if i see something

and it's going to take me 101 steps

i just don't do it you're right it's

just too many steps we saw

a guide a self-help guide online

actually a couple of months ago and it

had 20 steps and we did a podcast on it

we went through it

and you know i think it was number eight

and number 16

snuck in about another 25 additional


just in those two i mean we were a

little bit overwhelmed with 20 steps we

were gonna quit by step nine

yeah you don't have any you don't have

any steps in there or tools rather

in there that like it's a multi-function

tool right you know like a leatherman

it's like okay here's

here's like tool number 60 but it's

really like

20 tools all in one i mean that that's a


way of writing yeah yeah these are tools

they're not steps right so

it's it's about kind of mastering a

couple of them and using them

in the real world and seeing if they

work for you and if they don't then you

you toss them out you use the others

like uh i think the uh your tool chest

is a really good example right so

there are certain tools for certain jobs

that you need to

to use and then you know you kind of

leave them in there and they

collect a bit of dust while other more

pressing issues come up so these are

really tools that you can use whenever

you want to

become more creative i just i don't know

i got so tired of

all these books out there about

creativity and

you know most of them were talking about

yeah oh

you know find your align your chakras

and you know meditate for six 15 minutes

every day and

practice yoga and you'll be more

creative that's all cool

and it's good if it works for you then

go for it but this is like

my my manual is like just concrete

hardcore tools that'll help you in your

business today you don't have to

you know ring a gong every morning and

you know

meditate and you know try to stretch

by being upside down or something like

it's not about that it's just about

the practice of creativity sure and um

you know i think one thing when people

kind of like

look either towards self-help books or

books to kind of guide them in an area

where they're not particularly that

strong in

they seem like oh well i don't have any

creativity how is a book

going to give me creativity now

admittedly there are people out there

however fantastic your book is it is not

going to help because some people have

no bloody creativity whatsoever

yeah the two of us included well no i

mean we've recorded almost 100 podcasts

that's true creativity just a little bit

just a little bit so i mean do you


the teach-ins you do in that look maybe

a dozen of these

tools are going to get you where you

need to be some of you might just be

missing one or two vitals some of you

might need

90 of them um but how do you normally do

it do you

try and do a one-size-fits-all or just

adapt it to your audience

so i believe that everyone was born

creative and then at some point in life

it got beat out of you

right so maybe your teacher beat it out

of you or maybe

school or whatever happened to you

we just become less creative i have a

four-year-old who gets

you know toys on amazon and you know the

box comes in and he rips it up

he takes the toy out and plays with the

box for two hours and i'm like what what

the hell happened to us right so

i think at some point we've lost touch

with that sense of a world that can be

not a world that is

we lost sense of a world that can be

not the world that is and so we spend

all of this time

as adults you know oh let me look at a p

l she and that will tell me what's going

on or you know let me uh

you just lose that sense of wonder that

sense of possibility

and when he sees the box he sees like a

castle and then

it's a gas station and then it's a

spaceship and then it's a

you know a hiding tool where you can go

and try to cover it up

and like i see a box i'm like man i have

to fold it up cut the thing

put it in the recycle bin you know what

i mean like what happened to us right

right so it's like i i don't know i feel

that we're we were all born creative and

somewhere along

the the road somewhere along our path

we've lost it and so this

this project this book uh and my message

is really about rekindling that

inner creativity that we all had as

children and and

like tristan said i think some people

just need a little push in the right

direction and a couple of different

things and they're like yeah i remember

cool let's do it

and some people are so far gone man i i

you know i do a lot of

speaking a lot of keynotes a lot of

workshops and i i just did one

a couple weeks ago where we had you know

a group

that was so out of touch right they're

just like

all we do all day is is look at excel

all we do all day

is you know try to make predictions

based on

cash flows and where we're going and how


partition a certain market and i'm like


that's really important but have you

looked at it creatively have we started


unpack the things that have been

established to look at something maybe a

bit differently

and you know they would just like what

you know like we don't do that we

follow a process and the process works

and all this stuff

and so it was more difficult to


a new way of thinking but by the end of

the of the talk i think they got

some sense of hey we can

still follow the process but that's a

few questions along the way

and you you guys would be surprised at

how many

mindsets in business today are not

flexible they just look at

process and protocol and they follow it

and my methodology helps people

unlock that sense of wonder that sense

of questioning

and that's i think incredibly important


so going along those same lines and the

book being called the creator mindset

what would you say to some of those guys

out there or gals out there that

are running a business or are in kind of


c level suite that uh director level

suite where

whatever you want to call it that might

say you know i'm in a business that

really isn't about

creativity you know i'm in the

electrical business i'm in the

plumbing supply parts business what's so

creative about this

how can a book like yours apply to

somebody like that that says you know

i'm not out there doing content creation

i'm not creating art or music or

whatever because most people

in those like you say spreadsheet jobs

feel like there is no creativity there

that it is a nuts and bolts it's a

numbers on a spreadsheet job

so every single career on earth and

every single

thing that somebody does like like you

two right you guys are doing a podcast

there's a damn good reason you guys are

doing this right it is

some form of answering to who

you are and who you need to be and what

we do is we spend our life running away


what it is that we really need to be

doing because we're like i gotta make

money or i

you know grew up in a prestigious family

i gotta join this country club

whatever it is every different sort of

person has different barriers that

prevent them from doing what they need

to do

and so that plumbing supply company i

work with

a lot of blue collar you know sort of

sort of jobs i work with

people in the financial sector regularly

because those are the most

you know spreadsheet logic and and you

know flow chart oriented

people um to them i say that you

absolutely can be creative and not only

that is you need to be creative

um i did a uh uh a consulting

gig with a disaster restoration company


there's it's like the furthest thing

from being created right what do you do

you show up grandma burns

something on the stove there's a fire

and you show up and you help them

fix it right yeah new drywall pain

whatever needs to get done

and so these guys were in a strict

way of working for 30 years right they

did they came in

they quoted they did a job they closed

like i don't know

six percent of everyone they quoted i

said well that really sucks do you guys

like that they're like no we want to get

to eight percent

and you know eight percent is where we

want to be on closing

i said okay have you looked at your

billing or your

your uh invoicing model and so they

started to look at it

and i said why don't you guys allow

the homeowner or whoever had the


pick like an all a cart of what they

wanted to

to do or not do and they were like well

the business doesn't work like that

you know we don't do that and blah blah

blah why you know so i said let's just

try it on a on a

sub market right we we tried it i think

on a couple dozen

uh different calls then lo and behold

people people did it right

and we figured out the amount of money

so that the

the the charge so that you know if they

just picked the drywall service

right it wouldn't it wouldn't equal what

the old invoice amount was but

if they picked the drywall service and

this and the other things then

it would actually produce more money and

that's being creative right that is

super creative

looking at your invoicing model and

saying you know what i got to change

things up a little bit

super creative what ended up happening

is that they

were able to sell more work because they

were good

and they were good at customer service

and this kind of thing and so people

ended up

kicking off more boxes on the on the


services than they would with an all a

car with a

a lump sum model right so the a la carte


changed the paradigm of their lump sum

30-year history and that is incredibly

creative and that is the kind of thing

that we need to do

a little bit more in business to become

more creative and to

really extract meaning and and


from our work yeah i think there seems

to be a little bit of a

issue with the word creative because it

assumes that you've already achieved

something it's a bit like the word


and it automatically puts this pressure

on you and so when you ask

somebody to be creative they feel if

they don't

come up with something which gets the

admiration of everybody else they've

already failed but sometimes

you know a creative process comes in

very small steps with contributions from

different areas and when you put them

all together

that then is a catalyst for something

else again i think a common mistake is

somebody comes up with an idea

but because they might not have the

knowledge or ability to be able to see


to fruition they quit on it rather than

you know this is a great idea but

you know i need somebody else maybe to

manufacture this or do this

now with that being said do you think

group think and brainstorming in

businesses where you get

a group of people in a room all expected

to contribute

actually destroys that creativity

because people don't want to

speak up and they don't want to feel

like oh everybody doesn't look like

they're about to stand on the tables and


and you know i'll sit there and i'll

turn and i'll look at susie who i saw

doing a crossword at lunchtime who

couldn't get the answer to

barks makes a good pet susie you put cow

you don't belong in this meeting

so i know that was a long way to phrase

it but do you think it kind of uh

dampens creativity group think rather

than actually promoting it

it's a really good question i i just

wrote an article for

uh thrive global you know ariana

huffington knew uh

they they asked me to write about

introverts because there's a lot of

introverts at work right and

introverts are not generally the ones

that are going to pop out and be like

i've got an idea

but there is a creative realm again

right creativity is something we were

all born with

and whether you're an introvert later in

life an extrovert whether

you know you have your own podcast or

whether you you know

would never ever do anything like that

you don't even have social

you still have uh an ability to


and i feel like this group think or you


workshops where you get together and you

kind of whiteboard sessions and that

are incredibly valuable but they have to

be run in a certain way that

is sensitive to the sensibilities

of the attendees right so sometimes the

you know you get a bunch of extroverts

in a room yeah you can draw out and get

a bunch of ideas sometimes it's about

an email change sometimes it's about you

know hey

send me a text when you have some ideas

and we'll text back and forth

every single person has a different way

to manifest creativity

and that is very very important to

understand that there's no one side fits

all for this stuff you got to

approach everything as it comes in and


come up with a methodology that works

for that particular case i mean look at

you guys all right so

it's it's you tristan and max and you

guys came up

with a podcast uh together like how did

that come about right how did you guys

sit down and go you know what

we're gonna come up with a podcast we're

going to call it the wolfson shepherd

you guys are

incredibly successful right would that

be a like a group thing did you guys get


in a conference room and kind of draw it

up did you text each other

i mean how did that come about well to

be quite honest with you i forced him to

do it

uh so it was my idea and he

fought me on it for what about a year i


so you know we're basically a year

behind on the podcast i mean

we just got our fancy new camera what a

week ago

so uh you know we kind of looked at it


you know it was something that we were

thinking about doing i was thinking


it more than he was thinking about it


we're both kind of on that side where we

got a lot of ideas

we consider ourselves creative i guess

but we run into that you know bringing


through to fruition or do we want to

go ahead and put it all out there

without that knowledge of whether or not

it's going to knock it out of the park i


i'm sure we were both disappointed that

after day two spotify didn't come to us

with a hundred million dollars and say

you know hey you're you guys are the

next joe rogan we're just to fire joe

rogan and just hire you guys you know

but i think there's a lot of people out

there that don't want to go through the


right they they just want to say hey

here's this success

yeah yeah here's this deal they see it

on instagram like you know some girl

has pictures of herself and gets paid

millions of dollars just take pictures

of herself but they don't understand

it took them a long time to get there

they didn't just

create an instagram account and

overnight have you know 100 million

followers and get all of that

so kind of going along with that what

advice would you give somebody

that has that creative thing in the back

of their mind that

you know they think there's a lot of

instant success out there but of course


know just well as we do there's no such

thing unless you win the lottery

and that doesn't even necessarily mean

that you're going to have

instant success because lots of lottery

winners lose all their money right

but that guy or gal or or small group of

people that

they're a little bit worried about their

creativity maybe they don't have that

self-confidence that hey we've got this

great idea or whatever

what's some advice that you could give

them to to give them the little shove

you know that they need to go ahead and

give it a shot

so i talk a lot about the little victory

and that's a really important thing

right so

the little victory is about breaking

down your goals

into small and manageable steps and

when you are able to break down your

gold in the small and manageable step

you have a better chance of actually

doing it

um i think we live in a world that is

saturated with the get rich quick thing

um i i know it i'm in a field with other

books about creativity that came out

this year

that are literally like hey follow my

process and you're going to get rich by

next tuesday

the the thing is if if you or any of

your listeners know anything about that

please call me because i want to get

rich by next tuesday also

i really do that that's awesome my my

methodology is to get rich

slow program right it's all about

putting one foot in front of the other

and when i talk to people who are like

hey i want to try this idea but i don't

know how

it's really all about putting one foot

in front of the other

and you know the race is really not for

the swit

it is about having really small

measurable goals and just putting

one foot in front of the other hitting

that goal going to the next one going to

the next one

going to the next one and what you might

find out

is that the goal that you were setting

out to accomplish

might just be a little bit different but

incredibly better than what you


tried to do why it's because the market

had different forces upon

creativity and different enterprise that

might change the direction i'll give you

guys a story there was a

ice cream salesman many years ago who

sold ice cream machine

and his goal was to sell a bunch of ice

cream machines that was his goal

right he was like that's my big victory

and his little victories were basically


you know i'm gonna i don't know volume

i'm gonna call and

email or do whatever needs to get done

to sell a bunch of these machines

and he was doing all right for a while

but like any business

that not creative it just kind of

plateaus and people always wonder

you know well we need to be more

efficient why are we flatlining blah

blah blah it's because they're not


and what ends up happening is you know

they they kind of plateau for a while

maybe they come up with a new product

maybe they don't

and then they die that's it the life

cycle of the business is either growing

constantly or it's it's dying

there's no no middle ground here so

this guy noticed that there was a

certain restaurant

in southern california that kept

ordering machines and ordering and

ordering and he was like

why are they ordering machines and so he

he decided to have a creative idea

remember his goal was to sell a bunch of

ice cream machines but then

he had a creative idea to go down to the

restaurant take a look around and see

what's going on

he gets there there's a line around the


right 45 minutes people were waiting in


so he's like okay i'm gonna i'll wait in

line let's see what this is all about

the wait's in line gets to the front

and has the best cheeseburger he's had

in his entire life i mean this is like

the best cheeseburger ever and the guy's

name was where

ray kroc in the restaurant was


had he just had stood and said you know

what i

i want my instant gratification i'm

going to go for my main goal i'm going

to sell a bunch of machines

it's going to be great then you know we

would have never heard of him right

but he instead took an opportunity to be

creative and to think a little bit

different and to kind of follow an idea

that he had

and what you have is the biggest

restaurant chain

in the entire world so those little

victories are really what it's all about

and if you're doing this podcast right

and you want to be the next joe rogan

that's that's awesome

but you notice i attract a lot of people

that talk about creativity

and enterprise and business maybe

and my listeners want that maybe the

road isn't

joe rogan which is kind of general right

maybe the road will change a little bit

for you guys

and that road is still incredibly

meaningful and instead of

getting you know this big brand to

sponsor you maybe it is

an hp or a um you know

a microsoft or someone like that to go

these guys

are awesome because they talk about in

you know something that our audience


and is that lesser is that a you know

a lesser goal than your original

absolutely not

but if you stay flexible you stay

creative and when you stay creative

you're open to opportunities that would

have never happened before

now going back to your mcdonald's story

there if that guy's still alive somebody

needs to get him a drive-through

cheeseburger and let him eat it so he

can see how the quality has gone down

since uh day one

yeah that is true but going back to your

example with your son using the empty

box and playing with the empty box and

maybe in his head thinking as a


or although spacex has kind of ruined

the image of

what a spaceship should look like no no

that was yeah that was bezos

not spacex yeah yeah weiner in space

so but the whole point is that

children see something and

even if it's not something they can make

it into something

with their thought and they can come up

in their mind with a convincing enough

narrative and you know kind of live

action role play that

it becomes that for them in their mind

and it you know that really the item

it's just a visual spark which ignites

that fire

in their mind now i do want to say the

box thing doesn't work with my son

because i made the mistake of letting

him watch seven with me on the couch

so now if he sees any random cardboard

boxes laying around he just runs away

from them screaming

but you know it's kind of funny though

that you bring up the cardboard box deal

talk about creativity i bought a traeger


and when you get that grill shipped to

your house

they tell you to be careful cutting the

outside box off

because on the inside they printed like

a little log cabin

and so you flip the box around and tape

it together and your kids have a little

cabin to play in so

i mean i mean it's cool and i i

initially thought that too

right but then i thought when i was a

kid and you know parents get the new


you're supposed to draw the stuff on

there that's the creativity part right


even though it was creative on trager's

side to do that

it kind of took the ability away for the

kids to draw the door and draw the


and all of that stuff they just kind of

did it all for them hey here's where you

cut out the window here's where you cut

out the door

you know put a little dog on the side so

yeah but you still got to act out

the parts i mean like i was saying

before even a regular cardboard box you

can make into anything from a spaceship

to a house to a castle whatever

but it's what's going on in your mind

that really gives you that enjoyment and

that fulfillment

and i think towards that end in business

they need to find a way to reward

creativity which isn't life-changing

because your idea might just be that

spark for somebody else

your idea might be before it's time you

know it might need

a few more people with you know greater

vision and resources to come along in

five years to run along with your idea


there does need to be some way within a

business environment

that not only do you kind of like

ask for creative input i think a lot of

businesses do

but find a way to reward it if it's you

know not going to make

difference on a big scale even if it's

something that you know this is a much

more efficient way of

you know producing quarterly results and

we're producing a lot of our stuff now

in graph form

because all you know 90 of our you know

shareholders want to see is has the

price gone up or down

they don't need six sheets of figures

because they're not going to read them

anyway they just want to see

the bottom line so i mean even small

steps in creativity can lead to


and happiness for a lot more people i

guess we just need to find a way where

it's commonplace and not just pointing

at somebody being old as one of those

creative people

and you know communicate perhaps

everybody has something creative

i'm still not going with susie doing the

crossword she can't think worth the crap

but um you know that most people

even if they don't consider themselves

hyper intelligence can hyperintelligent

can just come along with

you know something which gets the ball

rolling on things you know

yeah definitely and and we need more of

it right and

it's it's an essential essential society

skill it's not just about business right

it happens to be that we live in you

know the greatest country on god's green


and the way that we practice free

enterprise here is a model for you know

for the world right

we we have a system where a really

really good idea can blossom into


that is amazingly beneficial to society


you know i talked to uh

everyone from medical field all the way

to the disaster restoration people and

they tell me

near ah we're not making a difference

we're not curing cancer or anything

like yeah but you're enabling an

environment where somebody's home can be

restored to where it is and when it's

restored to where it is they feel more


and when they feel more comfortable they

might go to work and come up with an


you don't know what the people do i mean

sometimes you do maybe they're a teacher

and maybe that day they touch the kid

because their house is in order

right and their kid in the classroom

that they had a

uh you know that they touched um grows

up and

cures cancer so how do you know that

what you've done hasn't had that effect

and how do you know

that just because you're in this type of

business you don't have

that kind of effect on people you don't

when you think creatively

everything that you do every word that

you say every motion and

initiative that you put out there has

the potential to affect

millions of people right and and a lot

of people don't they're like ah you know

i just have a small business i i'm a dry


like no you're not you're not a dry

cleaner you produce

something amazing for people to be able

to look their vest and feel their back

and when they look and feel their best

they're able to affect somebody in a in


good way i i did a nurses um


or so and they were like here we're

nurses okay we get it we we care for


we're in the nursing business like no

you're not you're in you're in the

communication business right if anybody

if any of your listeners have had the

misfortune of being in a hospital lately

i have

because i had appendicitis i mean not a

big deal but you know i had to spend a

few days there

the nurses were the hub of communication

for the whole damn thing

that's what they were i could do the

doctors came in i didn't know

what the [ __ ] they were talking about

they were like oh yeah the

laceration is uh blah blah with the

stitching of the you know

and i didn't know i don't know that

field right but i do know the nurse


they're going to take you down the

surgery right you're going to lie there

for a bit the guy's going to come

he's the anesthesiologist he's going

gonna say this after that you're coming

back to the room

your wife will be able to come into the

room for a few hours but she has to wear

them out

like they were the communication hump

you will be taking this medicine

at this time and when i told them that

they were like yeah we're you know we're

the communique and we've just lost sense

of how important our work is

in the wheel of life right the

how important our particular cog is in

the wheel

of life i'm hoping somebody listens to

this show today and

they go you know what i just had a

really great idea i want to do a b and c

and i think it will really

affect people in a in a great way and i

think that is

our life's work

it's you know substantial and

very much important and that's why i

am on this mission to help people become

more creative no matter what they do

because when you're able to be creative

the lives that you touch and the

amount of goodness right you can put out

in the world is

is incredible and so i think it's really


so before we sign off there's uh

if there was one thing that somebody

could take away today right before they

go read your book and all that if

there's one

little thing they could change right now

like you say they're listening to this

right now

and they've got this idea what's that

just one little catalyst

pointer you could give somebody to maybe

flip that switch in their mind to say

you know what i didn't think about it

that way let me give that a shot

and once they give that a shot and they

realize hey you know that work

maybe i need to pick up this dude's book

i would look at

and thank you i hope you pick up the

book it's a really good read it's short

it's really really it's meant to be read

in just a few hours

and i i hope and i'd love to hear what

you think about it if you if you get a

chance to read it

but basically what i would hope that

somebody would learn

is that there is no

issue that happens in your business or

your work

that is beyond questioning and there's

no issue that you should look at and

accept as is

just because you've been doing billing

the same way for 30 years doesn't mean

you can't change it

just because you've been offering said

product or service for

certain years doesn't mean that you

can't change it every single thing

that you look at in your business or in

your career

has the ability to change no matter what

you do if you're in middle management

you're like near my boss doesn't listen

to me and i can't get

any ideas across then you could change

that you

just need to believe and understand that

you're our

creative person and that there's nothing

that isn't

worthwhile and in your ability to change

it might not manifest itself in like

arrays or your boss suddenly

understanding you or you being like wow

that guy's great or that gal is amazing

it might not happen that way but it will

happen in a different way

because if your ideas are genuinely that

good and if your

initiatives are that good then they

might change in a different way and

things might

happen that are tangentially related

understanding that

every action might not have a direct

reaction that

through creativity there's kind of the

rule of tangentialness

that happened that things aren't always

a to b

b to c they're sometimes a to j j to l

l all the way to c and then finally to b

is an okay thing so understanding that

not everything is linear in your career

and and

not everything has a cause and effect


is an incredibly important creative tool

now before you go today can you give the

shepherd a rendition of i'm forever

blowing bubbles because i want to look

see the look on his face when he doesn't

understand why you're singing the song

are you a hammer no i'm not but i grew

up in england

so i didn't know

well actually about an hour outside my

mum was actually a west ham supporter

nice yeah that's awesome yeah she grew

up in

east ham yeah cool but yeah

are you uh who do you follow uh man


oh he's gone how do i log out

yeah you just upset him um your mom

would west ham and your man you

yeah can we unpack that for a bit nine

well at the time when i first started

supporting man united i mean

i think they'd won one thing in like

about 15 years so i certainly wasn't

jumping on the glory train but

that was one more thing than i think

west ham had won in about the previous



no i was a bit disappointed that west

ham didn't end up buying

lingard actually because he did so well

for you guys and i don't think he fits

in well at united whereas you know he

could be a hero at west ham he fits

really well into the system i think

moyes gets the best out of him yeah he


teach something man and we we had a

really good season

i'm hoping that we can continue it i

just football has changed so much and

the amount of deep pockets you need to

truly compete in the premier league is

it's just

it's changed the game you know and

there's very few

english-owned clubs anymore that are are


if you if you think about it and what's

happened to the last

the last holdout yeah i mean i think

leeds when they came up last season

i think they spent round about 80


just to buy a squad to stay in the


you know that's what it takes just to

not get relegated now

yeah it's wild it's wild it's going to

be i mean i can't wait when's the season

start august 14th i think yeah

summer around then yeah second second

weekend i think

yeah it's gonna be good i'm really uh

really really looking forward to it

yeah cool man and you gosh

if i would have known that i wouldn't

have done this

i'll get you more listeners because

we've got more fans worldwide

oh that one stung a little bit that

one's done a little bit

well uh near tell us how people can get

a hold of you how they can get a hold of

your book

all that good stuff give us your 30

second to one minute commercial

cool yeah thanks for having me guys it's

been a it's been a blast

i'm everywhere on the internet just

google near nir bashan v-a-s-h-a-n

um or my name is nir bashan

my website the book's called the creator

mindset you can get it anywhere

it's at barnes noble all over the

country it's in dallas you can go pick

it up if you want a hard copy today

you can order it online again i'd love

to hear what you guys think my

my info is on my website and i get


about two three times a week from all

over the world people like this is the

worst piece of [ __ ] i've ever read

i mean some of them uh but some of them

some people love it you know so i hope

you're in that

later that latter category of loving it

hey what's that old saying you know

there's no such thing as bad press it's

still press or something like that

so you know if somebody's complaining

about it at least they're reading it and

of course on our website we'll have all

your contact

information and a link to reach out to

you and some information about the book


near thanks once again for joining us

and that will do it for this episode of

the wolf and the shepherd

and we will catch you on the next one


thanks for listening to this episode

of the wolf and the shepherd podcast if

you like what you just heard

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join us next time for another episode of

the wolf

and the shepherds



Nir BashanProfile Photo

Nir Bashan

Author and CEO

Nir Bashan
From working with Hollywood and music stars like Woody Harrelson and Rod Stewart, Nir discovered something that may shock you: These creative superstars aren't all that different from you or I! It's just that they have mastered a method of repeatable and predictable creativity -- a type of creativity that anyone can learn. And it turns out that's the same type of creativity can be used in businesses and careers everywhere!

Nir has taught thousands of leaders and individuals around the globe how to harness the power of creativity to improve profitability, increase sales, boost customer service and ultimately create more meaning in their work. Working with clients such as AT&T, Microsoft, Ace Hardware, NFL Network, EA Sports, Suzuki, Activision and jetBlue, Nir has spent the last two decades working on a formula to codify creativity for business. That formula is found in 'The Creator Mindset', a book which has been translated into two languages and released worldwide by McGraw/Hill business in August of 2020.