Feb. 15, 2021

Episode 55 - Interview with Daniel Miller

The Wolf AND The Shepherd sit down virtually with Daniel Miller and discuss whether or not Texas can actually leave the union and become a country again which has now become the Texit movement

Daniel Miller is President of the Texas Nationalist Movement and has been an outspoken advocate for Texas independence since 1996. As the head of one of the largest and most influential political organizations in Texas, Miller has extensively researched and engaged the issue of self-determination, not just for Texas, but as part of a growing global trend.

He has been featured on every major news network and been interviewed by every major newspaper in Texas and around the world. A featured guest on FoxNews, CNN, CNBC, BBC News, RT-TV and many other news outlets, Miller has been a vocal proponent of a fundamental reexamination of the relationship between all states in the Federal union.


welcome to this episode of the wolf and

the shepherd today we are

talking about texan not brexit

because last time we had brexit around

we ended up with the wolf on this show

and that was a bad thing that came out

of brexit so

no we're talking about texit today and

with us from the texas

nationalist movement we have daniel with

us who is

going to be an expert on all of this

good stuff

answer all of our questions daniel thank

you for joining us today

hey thank you guys so much for having me

now daniel can you first work just


the title texas nationalist movement

because a lot of people out there

have a view on the word nationalist and

it's not always a positive

right you have that word can you explain

how that word

kind of fits into everything yeah i'll

tell you

uh you know the tnm was founded in 2005.


but we were very careful

about how we created the organization

how we named

it uh the the framing of our mission

took almost

18 months to get right so uh texas

nationalist movement was a a name for

the organization that was chosen with a

good deal of thought

and back uh when when we were

considering it

there was some some handwriting over

using that word nationalist because of

the connotations from the mid 20th

century right

but one of the things that we noticed

was that

you know we had to be true to who we

were and what we were going to be doing

as an organization

and so there were a couple things that

that led us to make that

that uh that choice uh the first one was

a reference in historical literature to

mirabeau lamar who was the second

president of the republic of texas

he's he's typically known as the father

of texas education

but he became known as the father of

texas nationalism and part of that was

his firm belief that the republic of

texas should

maintain its independence not join the

union so

as president lamar did a lot of things

to foster the sense of texas

nationalism as you know being a nation

among nations

so there was that component of it where

we had this historical touchstone of

president lamar

but even more important

i think than that is the sense that


by its textbook definition doesn't have

the uh the the negative connotations

that people have associated with it

in a in essence a nationalist or


is is a belief in one's nation

right in its national independence and

and we actually have a video about that

on our website at tnm.me

which takes the person through the

process that we

that we went through but the the

important part of that

is understanding the word nation right


approached texas with a very similar


to those people in the early days of the

republic where we

view texas as a nation in a nate by

nation i mean people

and we knew that every successful

independence movement

over the last 70 plus years has had uh

number one

a people focus and number two an


recognition of their own nationhood

right it's actually referred to

in academic literature as internal


so we you know after after a bit of


we said look we have to be true to who

we are people are going to label us

whatever they're going to label us

anyway right because they're opposed to

the things that we're standing for

aka texas independence so

what we have to do is we have to be true

we have to call ourselves what we are

in our sense we are the texas

nationalist movement

because we are an organization comprised

of people

that are texas nationalists who believe

in the nationhood

and the independence of texas so that's

where the name came from

now it's kind of strange because i've

traveled to a lot of

you know states and i know the shepherd

has also

and you know people

you know are proud of their state a lot

of the time in terms of its relationship

to the professional

you know sports teams they follow and

stuff but

i don't think any state has

quite such a passionate people in terms

of the

love for the states texas does i mean

people really

i mean you get all these labels of like

you know italian-american blah blah blah


you know living in texas being a texan

there's something about

this affinity with texas which

you know overcomes not i don't want to

say the national pride

but you know being a texan i think

means a lot more to people than people


you know other other states and how they

talk about their states

i've just not seen that pride in

you know people coming from other states

like somebody from texas i mean you feel

like you're part of a country

being in texas without even any

knowledge you know this texas

nationalist movement i mean

texans love texas i don't know if you

can really say that about too many

states in terms of

you know yeah well i mean come on when's

the last time you saw an

iowa shaped waffle iron i mean

let's get let's get real but you know

look at you know

the author john steinbeck wrote a book

called travels with charlie

where he loaded up the dog in in the

vehicle and

wanted to tour around america to figure

out what made america america

and and when he got to texas steinbeck

wrote that

there was a sense that he had entered a

different country uh you know and there

are some some phenomenal quotes in there

you know he talks about

texas is an obsession you know texas is

a state of mind

uh he talks about uh texas outside of


a texan outside of texas is a foreigner


and then he talks about texas is a

nation in every sense of the word so

you know it was it was interesting to

see steinbeck's recognition of that

not you know back in the 1800s but in in

a modern era that

people are still alive today that

understand it and i think

at a very fundamental level texans all

exude that that texan pride you know the

the fact that

uh we are in every sense a nation

you know and i think that is really at

the heart of

you know we may have our political

squabbles uh but at the end of the day

texans believe that they're texans and

you know

they may call themselves uh americans

they may call themselves whatever but

you ask a texan when they go outside of

the country where they're from

they will answer texas they will not say

the united states they will say texas

because that's just who we are

yeah and absolutely i mean there was a

time maybe about

20 years ago i used to fly back to


uh pretty frequently um

and it was just amazing you know i

i'd always used to fly back well most of

the time back into like jfk

and stuff and i was glad to be back in

the states but there was something

different about when that about when i

touched down and dfw and my feet

suddenly touched texas soil again i mean

it's just a very different feeling and

it's hard to explain to people outside

of this

you know outside of texas it's certainly


to for me to explain you know to my

relatives you know back in europe

and stuff but what i want you to be able


really kind of explain you know to our

listeners and our viewers

is a lot of people view this whole kind

of succession thing as very pie in the

sky like

how does this happen how could this


and it's basically because a lot of

people don't do much research and so

they kind of

you know dismiss it as a possibility but

you know can you kind of really kind of


you know the first kind of hackles up

type of

objection to the maybe the succession of


just the most commonly asked questions


uh skepticisms people have and just kind

of deflate those so people know

up front this isn't this pie in the sky

thing that this is actually a serious


yeah you know it's it's interesting


you know we we obviously get a lot of


you can imagine some of the questions i


had to answer over and over again but i

think a lot of those questions come

from sort of a fundamental

misunderstanding of how the process


and really almost a lack of perspective

you know one of the stats that we we

talked about quite often

is the number of you know at the end of

world war ii the number of

of recognized self-governing

independent nation states uh was a

little north of

54. okay uh the in 1945 the united

nations started and

they had 51 original members right uh

but by the end of the 20th century you

had 192

recognized countries around the world

and that number grew

after the 21st century ticked over

and so you know what what for us i think


important is to gain some perspective i

think people around the

world have an easier time grasping

the the concept of texas independence

then sometimes our folks here do

because they have seen this happen

around the world you know those new

countries did not fall from space

the earth did not get any bigger uh they

they were people just like us who said

look we

we believe that we are the best people

to govern ourselves and not some

you know entity that is outside of us

whether it be some

you know colonizing power or some union

or whatever that is they they did what


are doing right now and they said look

we want to be a self-governing

independent nation state

and equal to every nation on the planet

uh in every respect okay

so it's not a foreign concept

to say texas can stand as a nation among

nations if

all those other countries that are now

on the globe

were able to do it then it's obviously

something that's within our grasp

because those people are no better than

we are right if they if it's a problem

and they can figure it out then we can

figure it out too

um but the the other part of that is

beyond perspective

is you know these seemingly intractable

problems that people throw up you know

like what are we going to do you know

how are

we going to survive without all the

federal money

you know and and that that floats into

questions like social security

medicaid medicare you know these current

federal programs

national defense i mean that feeds into

a lot of it but

that's ultimately a misconception right


what we know as a fact

is that texans are overpaying into the


somewhere between 103 to 160 billion


every single solitary year that that is

money that is coming out of our pockets

right along with all the other money

that goes to the federal government it

goes right into the federal coffers

the federal government takes a scam and

then they pay that money back out and

programs or services or whatever

okay so you know the way that i equate

this and the way that i like people to

visualize is

imagine for a moment that you go to your


and your doctor draws all the blood out

of your body

he takes it he spills about 40 of it on

the floor

and then he retransfuses the remaining

blood back in your body and he says

there you wouldn't be alive without me


that is the the monetary relationship

with the federal government so when you

understand that every dollar that flows

into texas from the federal government

first came out of my pocket came out of

your pockets

then you know but after taking a little

bit of a haircut comes back now all of a

sudden you realize

that when you start thinking about these

programs like social security or

medicare or medicaid or

any you know national defense all of

those things

that people talk about federal money

coming into texas

um if we kept our money here at home we


not only fund those programs but have a

surplus enough to eliminate things like

property tax

so you know that so when you're

looking at those issues where it's about

money that's an important thing to

understand and then

finally there are a lot of these

questions that we get

a lot of times about post-texas policy

like how is our national defense going

to work what are we going to

use for money things of that nature and

there are definite

answers to though to every single one of


uh questions that people throw up but


it's not our place to answer those


right now as far as what the final thing

is going to be

simply because that the important part

of self-government is for the first time

in our lives

we actually get to decide that right

up until the point of texas independence

those decisions are all being made by

two and a half million unelected

bureaucrats in washington d.c

so you know we're going to be able to do

that and we obviously there are

obviously policies in place

that exist either through existing

federal statute that would dictate our

relationship with the federal government

or international covenants and

conventions that deal with

you know basically treaties that nations

have with one another related to trade

and fishing

and air traffic control and all of those

sorts of things

but i think you know all of that almost

takes away

the most important part of reclaiming

our right of self-government

and that is that we actually get to make

those decisions for ourselves for once

yeah i think um well for me one of the

annoying things

is when i see this calaxi you know

california succeeded from the union and

you know there was a big push maybe the

last 12 months before

you know the last election that donald

trump won again

that you know they were gonna send out

these polls

and see if you know california could

succeed and

one of this dumbest thing was that

um california was stating that hey we've


you know we were independent country we

have maybe the 12th in the world gdp

and it was like yeah but you're broke

you've been broke for

38 years if you weren't getting federal


you'd be like venezuela you know pretty

much within a weekend the thing is with

texas i mean

you know i mean god bless the guys who

wrote our constitution

in texas you know we don't go into that

we balance the books we don't need

federal money and what you said i mean i

think the

average of the last six or seven years

was a 146

billion dollars we overpaid into the


which we didn't get back yeah i mean

the annual average is such and this is

the way i like to equate especially for

where i'm at down here

on the coast uh and people understand


uh quite well the the it is the negative

economic impact it's like having

hurricane harvey right one of the most

devastating storm slash hurricanes to

hit taxes in a very long

time it's like having hurricane harvey

hit every nine months

that's how much the overpayment is like

and i mean

you know i i challenge people all the

time you know and we can talk about some

more of the stats and some of the


but i challenge people all the time to

think about if that money

stayed here in texas right okay so we're

just we're going to say that instead

instead of sending it to washington dc

we're going to keep it right here

well first and foremost what would that


in public policy no more would our


be meeting every other year for 140 days

beating each other over the head trying

to figure out how they're going to fund

things because we would we would be

flush with cash

but more importantly how would that

change our lives

like individually how would it change

your family how would it change

my family to not have that money

siphoned off into washington dc

to be frittered away in other states or

you know i mean just

completely wasted because everyone knows

that the federal government is not the

most efficient in the world

so you know what what is what does that

change in our lives look like

if we're not being stolen from every


our paychecks hit with that

there are a couple of them independent

studies which said you know

texas did actually succeed that we could

almost become like

las vegas and then eliminate personal

income tax

well we don't have personal income you

know we we currently don't have personal

income tax

well i mean as in terms of paying taxes

oh taxes

paid you know the irs that that could

almost be eliminated in terms of

you know the cost of us doing business

with other states

and actually taking part in some of the

trade programs which

obviously has been part of the united

states were in

the amount of money we would actually

make we could

completely eliminate that taxation upon

personal income

oh yeah i mean it could definitely go

away but i'll i'll even i'll even throw

you this one because this is one that

people don't talk about very much

um and it is pretty dry so you'll have

to bear with me

um but there was a study that was


uh by george mason university actually

there were two different studies but i

don't recall the first one

but they came out with essentially the

same results and and

what they were doing was they were

studying an effect of what they called

federal regulatory accumulation right


basically studying the fact that the

federal government has never met a

regulation that they don't like

so they regulate something related to

the economy

and then rather than repealing that

regulation or tweaking that regulation

they just

lay another one on top of it and then

they lay another on top of it and it

goes on and on so

they rolled this study back to i believe

1949 which is when we started to see the

real growth of the federal super state

and what they found was absolutely

stunning they by the time the study was

published the median average household

income or the median household income is

about 52 000 a little bit north of 52

000 a year and what they said that

in the absence of this federal

regulatory accumulation

the median household income would have

been about 330

000 a year so the the headline from that

in the take away is that with these

federal regulations the federal

government is essentially

siphoning 75 to 85 percent

of your take-home pay that's before they

even start taxing it right that's just


all of the regulations that compress gdp

now you know what you do the flip side

of that and go okay well in the absence

of those

federal regulations that have been

painted over one right after the other

what does that mean for us well that

means that anyone who can get out from

the umbrella of those

in in not only you know maintain their

current economic status that means

about a 600 percent pay increase for


well you take the the average

overpayment the 103 to 160 billion

dollars a year you remove the federal

regulatory accumulation and you look at


that increases the circulation well now

all of a sudden

we're not talking about texas being the

ninth or tenth largest economy in the

world we're talking about texas being

about the fourth or fifth largest

economy in the world

and we're talking about the ability

because of all of that money now flowing

through the system to eliminate

any type of income tax frankly we can

very like well

i mean just with the surplus we could

get rid of property tax 100

and just basically continue at the same

rate of consumption tax that we're

currently at

so you know we're talking about a major

improvement in the standard of life

or in the standard of living not just

for you know not just for the

middle class and for the wealthy but

more importantly for the working poor

and those below the poverty line

because that study showed that the

impact first off texas was

disproportionately affected

by federal overregulation but more


the people that were the most affected

were the working poor

and those below the poverty line because

those you know those effects are the

effects of the regulations were


they had a tendency to drive prices up

for the goods and services

most used by those that are the working

poor and below the poverty line

but it also increased the barrier to

entry for starting new businesses for


which is traditionally the bridge

between poverty and prosperity

so you know when we can show empirically

with absolutely no question whatsoever

there is no debate on this

issue when we can show that the federal


is harming us not just economically

but across all these spectrum but but

primarily economically

and we can show that it affects all

texans equally whether you're wealthy or

where you're absolutely poor

and texan becomes a way that we can

alleviate that and bring

prosperity to everyone in texas then you

know we have to have this conversation

yeah now one of the um

i think big fears people in texas and

i'm even talking about some native

texans not just newcomers

to the state of the last couple of

decades have

is basically the infrastructure they

hear these horror stories about

oh yeah you won't be part of the

national grid you know the water system

agriculture tech and then it's like

spend five minutes on the internet i

mean i think we have two electrical

grids of our own

you know we've got the best fresh water

system i think we're in the top two or

three in the entire nation for fresh


you know outside of silicon valley we've

got you know the best tech

mines you know in the country here and


i mean a game there's almost nothing we

can't grow here we are self-sustaining

but again people have these horror

stories about

how will texas survive we disconnect


from the rest of the united states and

you know they suddenly put these tariffs

on us that these goods cost

so much you know but we export far more

of what we do

you know than we actually bring in then

we look at california again

they have to buy water they have to buy

fresh water

you know they can go they can get a

blackout they can have half

of you know california having no power

you know that that's not going to happen

in texas but people

it's not through necessarily willful

ignorance they just hear these sound

bites of how

we need to be reliant upon the federal

government for certain things and they

don't realize

just how good the infrastructure here is

in texas

across the board yeah we're world class

i mean the the fact of the matter is is

that we

we are a self-governing nation in every

in in almost every sense of the word

except for the fact that we don't have

the right to govern ourselves

as part of this union you know and and i

think that

a lot of of what of what what you're


is really part and parcel of

fear-mongering i mean there's there's a

tremendous amount of that the opposition

and and make no mistake about it the

opposition to

this has been there for many many years

i mean

from the moment we were conceived in


uh we hit them and and what it is it's a

political establishment

that loves to have their hands in our

pockets who loves to have

all of you know basically to control us

uh and and every you know our economic

system our politics uh you know the the

cultural engineers that are out there

uh you know they it is a well-entrenched

political establishment that we are

battling against because they

don't want to see the people take the

power into their own hands to reclaim


right of self-government and the fact of

the matter is is when you

look at all of that fear-mongering i

mean you you literally just

did it you dispelled the fear-mongering

with facts you know we're attack you

know here we are in texas there are

three electrical grids in in the united

states there's the east enter the

eastern interconnect the western


in texas right so we have our own power

grid now

is that a is that a necessity for

independence and self-government

absolutely not you know we are the

number one

exporter of manufactured goods among all

the states of the united states the port

of laredo has surpassed

the port of los angeles in trade and

it's an inland port i mean i think

that's important for people to


uh you know so is that necessary for us

to be independent absolutely not

across every measure when you begin to

measure taxes up against

other self-governing nations around the

world you know we're we're coming out in

the top 10 lists

over and over and over across almost

every measure

that matters and so

all of this idea all of these ideas and

discussion about texas wouldn't be able

to make it

i mean i i don't know any

self-respecting texan that would really

buy into that

yeah and the funny thing is i mean i

think you take

many died in the world texans they

wouldn't even care you know they'd

rather scrimp it

and be texan than you know have to


you know fight fight with the dogs for

stuff but i think

you know outside of texas

you know a lot of states are very


on a number of other states to actually

keep living the way they

live and i think the thing is here in

texas we're really not

like that if you know something happened

tomorrow and we could not trade with

another state we could not

trade with another country i don't think

for the most part any texans would

notice and i don't think there are any

other states which

could really you know kind of say that i


we we are without actually succeeding

our own nation but we're still

you know having to pay this money

federally but

as much as it should probably hurt us

every single year which goes past

you know we keep smashing through these

barriers and making more and more money

in tech and agriculture and everything

else to the point where

it i think it's i can't remember the

guy's name but he said that

you know texas pretty much if you took

texas away from the united states

the gdp would fall down so much to the

point where the national

debt would increase where you know our

borrowing rates in china and everywhere


would get to the point it would have a

stranglehold on the fed

and you know texas we don't need

the united states united states needs


i mean that that's been proven

economically i mean it's been proven in

terms of

you look at you know across the military

they need texas

in terms of you know strategic point you

need texas in terms of agriculture in

terms of a lot of things

the united states needs texas and

sometimes i feel like

i i don't know i kind of get a little

bit angry in the way we're treated at


you know and the the attitudes towards


because you know it's just well we don't

need you type thing

but again i mean we're all you know

that's the thing in texas we are

patriots we do love our country we do

love the united states

but you know many of us we love texas


but you know i i kind of wonder

what point where we're going to be


to where this actually becomes a real

thing and we

put this in front of people and say look

you know we really don't have to put up

with this i mean now i think on your

website you've got

just over 400 000 people who have you

know registered

and the population of texas is just

under 30 million

now people might say all right you know

that's not a high proportion of

you know representation of texas but it

actually is given people who have gone

to your website and actually registered

on there

now have you done much polling you know

across the state in terms of

people you know percentage wise good

numbers who actually do

support texas leaving you know the

united states

yeah absolutely look and i'll get to

that but your compadre is chomping at

the bit over there i

i know he's getting ready to either ask

me a great question or


no it it it's kind of ironic because i i

was kind of floating towards that

same kind of question you know what what

is the hurdle

yeah yeah wait we're all sitting here

all three of us were texans

and i'm i'm sitting here listening to

this and i'm saying to myself

you know hey this all sounds great but

what is the hurdle

yeah where where are the

the polling numbers so to speak right


and what's what's that next hurdle to

get this

rolling forward

you know and as the texas nationals

movement kind of

done their research there to try to

figure out you know

but where do we where do we go from here


yeah look i can i can knock both of

these questions out

in one answer but you got to get you got

to give me a little

little space to expand it as you ha as

you've noticed

there are typically no simple answers

where this is concerned but here's what

it boils down to


there's uh you know the it's really

about process

okay so let me start with the process

and then i'm gonna i'm gonna take the

the the question

about you know the number of supporters


kind of the population and we'll we'll

address that

okay so the the process is is

pretty straightforward if texas was a

state that had

citizen initiative this would already be

on the ballot

right but what it takes for us

article 1 section 2 of the texas

constitution is abundantly clear

it says all political powers inherent in

the people and it says that the people

have at all times the inalienable right

to alter reform or abolish their form of

government in such manner as they may

think expedient right so

what this means is this this question

has to be put to the people of texas

so the the the first step in this


is that is we have to get this on a


for the people of texas to vote on now

the challenge with that is

is that there is no statute that allows

us to do that

there's no citizen initiative where as

citizens we can get

signatures and force something on the

ballot so what we have to rely on is we

have to rely on a legislative process we

have to have the legislature

place a statute on the books that will

give us this vote

okay now that that part of it is

happening right now after working on

legislative issues since 2009 where

we implored these guys we rallied up we

did all the things

necessary to try to get somebody to at


introduce the legislation this session

last month uh state representative kyle

biederman from down in the hill country

filed hb 1359 which will do that

it's called the texas independence

referendum act and it says look let's

put the question

to the people of texas over whether or

not they want to

stay or go so very similar to

the uk referendum and brexit to the

scottish independence referendum in 2014

all the way back to the 48 or so

independence referenda all the way back

to 1900

this is the question that if this

legislation passes will be put to the

people of texas

it is a very black and white issue right

it's like either you support the right

of the people

to vote on this or you do not because


the issue that's not up for discussion

right now is text it

the issue related to this legislation is

whether or not an elected official

believes that the people are smart


and competent enough to make an

appropriate to make their own decision

on this issue i think it's notable

that all of the politicians that are

coming out swinging against this

are coming out swinging at the issue of

texas they say texas

fringe they say it is extreme they say

it won't happen they you know there are

all these project fear assertions

and then they turn around and they say

uh but i don't want the people to be

able to vote on it well if it is so


if it is so extreme if it will never

happen then

why not let why not put it on a ballot

and let the people vote for it i mean

literally the only thing it costs is the

ink on the paper if it's a paper ballot

or the electricity to light the pixels

on the screen for people to to make

their choice that's all it costs

because the vote in and of itself is not

to extract us it's to begin the process

of developing a transitional plan

so so that that's the process question

right and so to

to your question about is there enough

support out there

in 2005 when we started support for

independence was pulling in single

digits okay

just because most people weren't on

board didn't mean it wasn't the right

thing to do

so we had to go out and we had to set

about educating people on this issue

the number one the number one

issue that is holding this

back has been the belief in the people

that it can happen not that it should

happen right we were blowing those polls

out by 2009

almost half of republicans about 45 of


and uh 15 of democrats were saying that

texas would be better off as an

independent nation

fast forward to 2014 where you had

over half of republicans right at half

of independence and 35 percent of


say that texas should become an

independent nation we've done

tons of third party polling you had in a

recent poll

i think 53 54 maybe even higher

uh in a victory insights poll of

republicans say that

they would absolutely vote for texas to

leave the union

uh if joe biden takes office so there's

tons of polling both but third parties

and uh you know internally that we do

that that indicates that if this thing

goes to the ballot we win

uh and and so what i tell people is look

we wouldn't be pushing so hard

for the referendum if we didn't think

that we were going to win it

consistently internal polls show our

internal polls show

that we poll anywhere from 8 to 12

percentage points

ahead of those people who want to leave

or who want to stay excuse me

so the the fact of the matter is is

we're pushing hard we think we'll

we'll slam dunk it by a 10 to 15 point


because we can make our case and and we


we can talk about that case here in a

minute but i really want to address this

issue about

the number of supporters listed on our

website versus the population of texas

literally no other organization is

measured by that metric none uh

if you look at our declared supporters

as a ratio of the the populous of texas

and the voters

and you can compare us to other major

organizations like the national

organization of women or the naacp

or the nra we are outside of the two

major political parties here in texas we

are the largest

political advocacy organization here

we're the second largest independence

movement in the western hemisphere and

one of the largest in the entire world

if if we were and literally if we were a

political party

we would be a major third party here in


now we're not and we have no intention

of doing that

but the fact of the matter is is that

when it comes to the size of our


the opposition loves to look at that

number right we put it up there on

purpose that wasn't an accident

we needed texan we needed to overcome

the greatest weapon

that the opposition has had and i

alluded to it a moment ago

it's when the politicians talk about

this idea being extreme

when they talk about that it's fringe


the greatest weapon that they have in

their arsenal that has kept this back

is us it's the people themselves

so what we have done our strategy has

been to engage in this like

retail politics like any other political

advocacy organization

and to remind texans that feel this way

that they are not alone

we literally instruct our volunteers

to at this moment in time do not look to

convince anyone

that's not the battle for today the the

ba that is the battle for when it's time

to go to the polls and vote on taxes the

work that we have to do right now

is connect with texans who are already


uh there are there are enough of us in

texas right now

that believe that not only texas would

be better off as an independent nation

but that we should make that choice

that we can not only get a referendum on

independence but we could win that


are are we a little bit concerned about


influx of what i'd love to call


right you know that you know california

right californians

are running over here to texas new

yorkers are running here to texas

every everybody's jumping in and saying

you know hey

not only do i want to move to texas i

want to go ahead and tell all my friends

to move to texas

and then they show up here now you put

something on the ballot

and you say hey we're going to be

independent and these guys that

come over from different states are

saying well and now hang on a second

i thought i was just moving to a

different state because i've lived in

four or five different states before

i don't want to move countries i i just

want to live in the us

but you know texas is so much better and

of course we all know that

right but now all of a sudden you put


ballot initiative out there and all

these people do have the right to vote

is that a concern well i think it is a

concern but but look i'll answer that

from number one from our experience

and the experience well let's take

experience out of it i'll answer it from

that but i'll also give you hard data

on how things really are there is a

concern out there

about folks that are moving in to texas

from these other states

where they have had these failed

economic policies and failed social

policies and

the politics is about you know teetering


uh you know karl marx karl marx wet


uh but but the the bottom line is our

experience has been that

so many of those people that are coming

to texas right now

are coming to texas because it's texas

and because they are essentially

political cultural or economic refugees

from the state in which they live right

so those failed policies

are driving out people who are

in in a large sense texans in spirit

right they have an independent spirit

they believe that the government that

governs best governs least

uh they don't want the government with

their hand jammed down their pockets

you know all of those sorts of things so

those people are

are fleeing those places as essentially


and what we're hearing from uh you know

so many of those people is

many of them are coming here

specifically because they expect texas

to leave the union

and they want to get here before they

need to apply for a visa to get here

so you know that that's a that's a

wonderful scenario to be in and it's

it's anecdotal

but let's talk about real on the ground


uh and you don't even have to take my

word for it

uh governor greg abbott was speaking at

an event with the texas public policy

foundation a couple of weeks ago

and he talked about he he actually told

this story so if anyone wants to fact

check me

go look and see what the governor said

about it oh now

before you go any farther nobody fact

checks our podcast

i'm used to it right yeah yeah we made a


that dwarves make up 72 percent of the

population and nobody questioned it

yeah uh okay but i'm still putting the

challenge out there anyway

okay someone will i i get fact checked

more than anyone i think

now can i interrupt you real quick when

i mentioned that

you know your website had over 400

000 registered users and there's just

under 30 million in texas

that is actually quite a high percentage

of people

who identify with a movement when it's


um because it was just like when you

know donald trump

got elected the first time around you


that sleeper movement you can never

allow for that sleeper movement so

whenever you see like say you know

you've got over 400

000 supporters on your website the

numbers are going to be

astronomically higher than what it is


and i think like i said there needs to

be either

a catalyst some kind of timber box which

is really going to make

people take this seriously and i don't

know economically

you know how this government which we

have now

is going to be treating things across

this next six

12 18 months two years three years

whatever but

we do know the texans you can only push

them so

far and there's some people who are very

passive who might not necessarily


you know with the texas movement whoever

you push them

these good old boys in west texas and

east texas and here they're and


you know they may not be nailing their

colors to the mast at the moment because

there's no need to but you push them

into a corner

you make things difficult for them you

start hitting their paycheck you start

affecting their family

and stuff these people are going to come

out and really

you know bring more numbers to this

movement at the moment

you've just got the people who that they

just give an opinion because none of us

are in a boat at the moment in texas

where anybody's pushing us to have

to really give an opinion on things you

know and that's why i think that number

that 400

000 is actually pretty freaking

impressive given

we're not in a precious situation to

actually give an opinion on it

sure oh look you know there the two two


uh on that you know if you look and see

how many

like if you want a a textbook definition

by statute of how many members

are there are in the republican party of

texas which is the dominant political


uh that number by statute definition

is about 2.1 million okay so that's

if you want to know how many republican

actual republicans there are

that's about 2.1 million so where did


where did the where did the rest of

those votes come from right so it's not

who has declared their support it's at

the end of the day

how many people are going to go vote for

this on the ballot and and there is a

correlation between the two

right you can show that but what we've

always said is

is that every discussion about this is

just a thought exercise

until it gets on a ballot and then it

becomes real

and just like you saw the silent brexit


bring i mean that they're the ones who

swung the uk

out of the eu right it wasn't the you


everyone had a role to play but you kept

leave.eu i mean they they did what they


but ultimately what did it were those


that were sort of harboring this feeling

you know

harboring that feeling that the you know

the only flag on the polls the

government building should be the union


those people are the only those people

are the ones that had never said

anything to anyone

had never attended a meeting had never

attended a rally had never joined


but he waited for the opportunity where

their voice would matter where their


would count and that's where we are

right now you know when when we're out


doing this work we're connecting with

the people that are convinced

we're connecting with people that have

been waiting for this their entire lives

people who may have just swung over to

it because

excuse me because of external


you know what whatever whatever their

impetus was

but there will always be a chunk of

people here in texas

that have been feeling this way their

entire lives and

all they wanted is the opportunity to

cast a vote so

you want to talk about the catalyst i

mean our goal our our

milestone our first milestone on this


was to get legislation filed that's been


now the horse is out of the barn right

whether the legislature passes it this


or stands in the way it will have

repercussions for the for the

until you know probably for the next

hundred years of texas politics

and the people of texas who have had an


to to you know potentially vote on this

thing are not going to give up and go


this issue will define politics more


than any other policy issue that texas

government has tackled

uh and it will and look at this not


what's happening in the next few weeks

will determine the course of texas

politics for the next 100 years

now can i ask you a question and i know

this is

again one of the most common questions


comes up when we talk about succession

of the state

and i'm having to go from a memory here

but i'm a genius i'm sure i can remember

um it was that can estate

legally concede and i think it was 1869.

thank and the supreme court

um hold on one second they wrote that

unilateral succession was


unless revolutionary consent of the

states could lead

what was it to a successful succession

now what does that

that's the thing when most people look

up about

whether a state can succeed can you

answer that because i know

that in itself that ruling is not

absolute i mean that's it's

garbage yeah yeah okay

so here you go gentlemen and i you and i

use that that term in the most endearing


i am going to take this opportunity on

your podcast to put a stake

through the heart of texas versus white

uh because it is absolutely and utterly


and here's what i'm going to tell you

first off


of the people who throw that out as an

excuse have

never read the case don't know any facts

about the case

and have no knowledge of anything that

happened in the supreme court after that


they they heard it from some uh you know

third rate adjunct professor at bug

tussle community college who got

tinged by a local media outlet to chime

in on this

and and it's so much garbage okay so

let me just start off by laying the

groundwork before i get to texas versus


the united states constitution is

absolutely silent

on the issue of a state leaving the

union and some people will say

well because well that means that the

constitution doesn't allow you to do it

it's like no no

you don't understand how this works the

united states constitution is a limiting

document on the federal government

literally in article 10 is a list of

items of things that these states cannot


they you know the list states cannot

coin money

right i mean there's an entire list


is not on that list okay so what the


section that we got to worry about now

is the 10th amendment right which says

that any powers not given to the federal

government are reserved to the people

in the states okay so that means it's a

state decision

and our constitution is abundant article

one section two that i quoted earlier

it's a p it's up to the people of texas

to determine our destiny right so

you can take this idea that it's

unconstitutional and throw it in the


there is no federal law prohibiting it

there is no provision of the

constitution prohibiting it

so they fall back on this ridiculous

notion that the supreme court in texas

versus white

said that states can't leave so

it is time for my takedown of chief


salmon p chase

this the the case at the heart of texas

versus white was a

an issue over bonds that were issued by

the confederate government of texas

during the civil war okay and there's a

whole bit of

interesting nuance there because it

actually came

those bonds were originally from the

part of texas that was sold off to the

united states

right remember when we had that nice

little panhandle shape and we actually

had our own ski resorts

okay um or could have had our own ski

well now

now hang on yeah that was when colorado

was up there we don't want to accept


you know it it reached up there so

so now we we don't accept them we don't

accept that

we don't want to drive the waffle iron

guys out of business right we don't want

them to have to go back to the factory

and recut their waffle iron molds

so the map stays as it is okay so

so that's what it was about it was about

these bonds and whether or not

the the bonds should have been cashed

now interestingly enough sam and p

chase before he was chief justice of the

supreme court

was the secretary of treasury under


and he would have been the guy who would

have had to sign off on the receipt of

bonds to pay

out the money okay so first off salmon p

chase should have never been

sitting in that suit because because

it was something that happened under his

tenure as secretary of the treasury okay

but let's go beyond that let's look at

what chase said

in his ruling now you you mentioned some

parts of it where

you know consent of the states or by

revolution but you have to look at what

chase says

first off he says that the union

is an indestructible union comprised of

indestructible states okay so

first question if it is if both the

union and the states are indestructible

someone has got to explain west virginia

to me

because the last i heard if we're

indestructible then you can't go chip

off a piece

right so you know because that's really

what we're talking about

so explain west virginia but but that's

not the important part that's the funny


the the real interesting part was when

you start

following chase's logic how he got to

that conclusion

so gentlemen buckle your seat belts for


most interesting mental gymnastic

exercise from sam and p

chase now we were all taught in school

that the the colonies became states

right they when they declared their

independence they declared themselves

states equal to the status of the state

of great britain

right that is straight from the

declaration of independence

so they were 13 self-governing

independent nation states that were

united in their opposition to king


so they then drafted a document called

the articles of confederation

which they began to govern themselves

under and then we all know the story

that they thought the articles wasn't

working for them you know there were

some some provisions so what they did


they sent these delegates off to a

convention to

amend the articles of confederation to

try to make it work out and instead what

happened was

the convention chucked the articles of

confederation and came up with a

completely brand new document

called what which was eventually the us

united states constitution

right and then that constitution had to

be sent to the states to be ratified so

the articles of confederation were no


and the united states constitution

became the operative so

sam and p chase though made the argument

that the united states constitution was

not a new document in and of itself but


merely an amendment to the articles of


so his assertion was is that the

articles of confederation

were still in effect at the time of the

civil war

and the constitution was an amen an

amending document to it now

any school kid can tell you that that's

garbage and it was so

out there as a legal theory at the time

people raised their eyebrows and we'll

talk about that here in a minute

but what's interesting about his theory


that he said okay because it's an

amending instrument to the articles of


the articles of confederation refer to

the union as a perpetual union

and so therefore in the preamble to the

constitution when it says to form a more

perfect union

it is to form a more perfect perpetual

union i guess

perpetual version 2.0 maybe is what he

was going after

so you know how do you make something

perpetual even more perfect right you

can't make it more perpetual

so what does that mean well that means

that if you can't make it more perpetual

but yet it's going to be more perfect

then it has to be less perpetual right

but that's beside the point because

interestingly enough when it comes to


at that argument if chase is right he

invalidated george washington's first

term as president

because by the time of george

washington's first term as president by

the time he was elected

not enough states had ratified the u.s


right there were still a couple of

holdouts that hadn't ratified it yet

so he essentially nullifies george

washington's first term as president

but more importantly he sets the stage

for something very interesting that

happens later not in texas versus white

but in a subsequent supreme court case

called jacobson v massachusetts

because remember chase's entire

assertion is predicated

upon his reading of the preamble of the

u.s constitution

right in its in the uh the preamble is

the only connecting linkage that he has

to the articles of confederation for his


subsequent case called jacobson v


which held that the federal government

can derive

no powers from the preamble of the


so you don't have to overturn texas

versus white directly by a case about

secession because frankly it wasn't

about succession to begin with

you don't even have to deal with it at

all because you can look at it and say

it's dicta

right it's just commentary but what's

important is the

base argument that chase uses for his


was utterly destroyed by a subsequent

supreme court in jacobson v


when you cut that linkage off you

destroy his entire argument

but even more basic than that

texas versus white is internally

contradictory okay

when he says it's an indestructible

union of indestructible states but then

later goes on to say

excuse me later goes on to say that

there was no provision

there's no way for states to leave

except by

consent of the other states or


well which one is it is it a perpetual

indestructible union

or is there a way to leave so the fact

that he actually

caught totally contradicts himself i

mean those are flip sides

you know those are two completely

opposite positions they can't

live within the same decision

and both be right and so if they both

can't be right

then ultimately neither are right so

long story short is that people who want

to bring up texas versus white aside

from the fact that most have never

actually read it or understand it or

looked at it

the world didn't stop spinning in 1869.

you know the world kept moving our

constitution here in texas

was was written in 1876 right so post

texas versus white post-civil war and

article 1 section 1 ends with the words

that the perpetuity of the union depends

on the right of local

self-government unimpaired to all the


basically saying as long as we our right

of self-government our local

self-government is preserved

then we'll stay in the union otherwise

we're out of here you know the the

implied exit strategy

and then you have the reservation of the

rights in article 1 section 2.

so at the end of the day the question of

texas independence is not a judicial one

it's a political one it's only in the

hands of the people

the the the so to put an uh an end point

on texas versus white understand

that the decision the opinion rendered


chase and texas versus white was so


among the northern states that they were

actually proposing

they were proposing resolutions and

potential laws

to restrain the power of the supreme

court and to

essentially reinforce the existing


that the supreme court cannot and should

not legislate from the bench

legislators in northern states were

outraged and everyone thought that sam

and p chase was crazy

and frankly he was because he was

utilizing that to try to

retroactively justify some of the

actions that the federal government took

towards states that left

but that's a that's a a discussion for


uh that deal with history what we're

talking about is

what our rights are right now and and

what we have seen post texas versus


is we have seen a federal government

policy that has sent

our grandfathers our fathers our sons

and daughters overseas

to fight and potentially die for the

right of self-determination for people

all around the world you literally just


joe biden take to the airwaves

and condemn the government of burma or

myanmar whichever one you prefer

for overturning the results of a

fair democratically held election a vote

that essentially would have put a

people-elected government in power

so the implied the the implication when

people invoke texas versus

white is that if we do the same if we

decide we're going to vote

that somehow it will lead to civil war


union harder right that somehow they're


to send the troops everything else but

the fact of the matter is that is not

the way the world works now it hasn't

worked that way for some time

and i think it's going to be very hard

to justify to the american people

that you know that if texans if our only

crime is going to the polls in voting

for our self-government

it's going to be very hard to justify

the federal government policy

to intervene in burma when a government

suppresses the people's right to vote

and then turn right around to do the

same thing right here in texas

yeah now um sorry that was a long one

there was actually a discovery channel


so i think it was close to about a year

and a half ago

and it was talking about civil war the

chances of another civil war in the

united states and

every single model from every historian

every professor they ran

they said you have to take texas out of

the equation

because the side of texas always wins

it's like it doesn't matter because like

you know you got

the landmass the advantage it has in

terms of

you know getting the electricity grid

the fresh water supply

agriculture everything else but also the

number of ex-vets the number of hunters

snipers everything else that any

simulation you do of a civil war

model in the united states of america


president day you have to take texas out

of the equation because

texas wins and they even went a little

bit further

they ran these models through that like

even if the other 49

states went against texas it'd be a twin


that texas wouldn't defeat the other 49

states so i mean

in terms of how we can hold our own

you know that's not really up for debate

but what is obviously going to occur

is that you know this is actually pushed

towards a popular vote

you know among the people of texas right

there is definitely going to be a push


from washington because they don't want

us to leave because like we said earlier

they needed uh they need us we don't

need them

and they realize they lose us it's going

to be a huge economic hit

um so there is going to be pushback

and you know what one thing i can say

and i've said to multiple people you

know i've got you know french relatives

living in other states is

it doesn't matter whether you agree with

the politics of you know greg abbott

um you know cruz whatever

you know they stick up for us you know

and it that i know they don't represent

everybody's feelings in texas but they

stick up for texas

and i can't tell you how many friends

i've had who they're embarrassed of

their state representatives who don't

stand up for their state

i mean one thing i will say you know

about our representatives in

texas they prove they do pretty much for

the whole

stick up for us you know i i don't and

that's definitely not paramount

among the rest of the states in the

union i mean they they really kind of

pander to their own positions in terms

of wanting to be

re-elected who they're pandering to you

know in the higher people in their party

you know to the government but our texas

representatives have done a pretty good


representing us and the people in texas

you know against a lot of the criticisms

of you need to do this

you need to do that we stand pretty firm

against the federal government compared

to the majority of states i think

yeah but but all ultimately the the

question is why should we have to do

that all the time

i mean we're we are texas is constantly

having to do battle with the federal

government over encroachment

right and i think it really sort of

boils down to these these tensions

between the states

between one another in the federal

system and you know there are

on the lips of many people a prediction

of civil war but what we have always


when people start pitching texas leaving

the union or any state leaving the union

for that matter as

you know the start of a second civil war

we we point to

recent history to show us that rather


causing a civil war it will prove it's

going to ultimately prevent one

uh you know there was the case of of

sudan where they had a civil war that

raged for 30 years

millions dead in that civil war and

ultimately the solution to that which

brought peace

was to separate and to be north sudan

and south sudan

so you know if we're experiencing if the

system the federal system is

so broken that we're experiencing so

much tension that people are even having

conversations about a civil war

or implying that if a state were to

leave that military force would be used

it's it's definitely past time to have

this conversation we need to be having

the conversation about

separating ourselves now uh rather than


because there might not be a later uh uh

look somebody else he's itching again

yeah i

know i mentioned you know i i'm the only

one that's

hitting the the mute button i'm i'm

sitting here you know

trying to navigate all this stuff but

so one of the questions i've got for you


a lot of times if you look back in the

history of the united states right

and you have the different purchases

you have texas coming in you know they


a country before they came into the

union he had

all these different aspects of how

territories became part of the united


is there a possibility or in your

organization that you've looked at

that said hey let's back up

in and kind of reverse engineer this and

be like puerto rico and say you know

what we don't want to be a

state anymore we're gonna go to a


we're gonna let go of statehood and just

go to

territory while we figure out all this


has that ever been mentioned yeah i mean

you know there's there's the the free

association status i mean there's some

things of that nature but look it's

the only thing that is independence is

actual independence

right um but you know we go back down to

that process

issue and sort of where the the

misconception is for someone some people


that if we go to the polls and vote for

independence that you know independence

day plus one minute suddenly

it happens you know when all of a sudden

you know the garbage trucks don't run


you know we're fighting every you know

we're fighting each other and loincloths

and the thunderdome

and you know all of this craziness and

that's just not the way that it works


we're gonna find male 1 voting though



it'll it'll be up to us right uh but

but you know the the fact of the matter

is the process itself is

we the people express their will and


it's up to us to carry out that will

right we have

elected officials for a reason and

constitutionally those guys

make the laws they they work out the

transition plan and

you know obviously with all the input

from everyone but

we have a system in place right it's not

like the system evaporates after

an affirmative so you know we've got

transitional issues we've got to deal


but everything stays the same until it

changes and and how it begins to change

is all going to be predicated upon the

actions that we have to take

now there are definitely some

transitional things that are going to

have to happen

we've got offices uh that are

constitutional offices that are going to

have to be expanded

uh to deal with our role as a nation

among nations for example

you know the one one example i use all

the time is secretary of state

right our secretary of state doesn't

deal with international issues

uh we would probably have to expand the

power of secretary of state's office to

deal with the international issues

uh you know and there are some others uh

you know the comptroller's role

dealing with monetary policy and and

things of that nature

yeah and and to interrupt you i mean one

of the things my

daughter's worried about is she has a

season pass to six flags

so it you know here in arlington

it is her season pass for six flags

gonna be

able to get her into any other park in

six flags

everywhere else i mean there's so many

ridiculous things like that

like you're kind of talking about but

those are those are things people

think about and and i know that's kind

of a joke and and we can laugh about it


i've honestly thought about some of

those things like

people with a mortgage that is fha

insured so now they have a fha mortgage

is there going to be a problem there

their bank account is

fdic insured what's what's gonna

you know take place there i know that's

so far in the future but these are

probably questions you're getting hit


yeah and look we've got uh you know i

got guys i wrote a book

i don't know if you guys have seen it

it's called text it why and how texas

will leave the union and and i answered

like i

you know we released the book two years

ago and what i did was i drilled down on

all those questions and then

in addition we actually have them on our

website at t m dot me

slash texit and and tons of questions

like that you know like

what about currency how are we gonna

handle banking

uh you know we answer those most people

don't realize is that

texas charters its own banks uh

so you know people think about well you

know house texas but how

are those banks going to do business

here how are texas banks going to do

business there well

most people don't realize hsbc is a

spanish bank you know i mean

there are examples of how these things

work one of the questions that we get

asked all the time

oddly and i say all the time frequently

is you know is are the you know the

longhorns of the aggies going to still

be able to play in the ncaa

and it's like yeah the ncaa has already

started the process

of of bringing in teams that are not the

united states so they're like okay what


the astros and major league baseball

it's like did you think toronto was

part of the united states you know i

mean these these

there are examples for all of these

things that already exist you know

social security recipients the most

asked question that we get what's going

to happen to my social security

you go to the social security

administration website and they tell you


expats that are drawing social security

can continue to draw social security as

long as they don't renounce their


and the united states government doesn't

force you to renounce your citizenship

if you become an expat

so it would this solve the dallas

cowboys problem of not being able to

get into the super bowl for years i mean

you know would

would jerry jones kind of support this

and and maybe the cowboys can

finally turn around and win a super bowl

i don't know but maybe we would finally


the dadgum nfl team in san antonio

one thing i did want to address and um


you know one thing i know which has been

criticism from other states is that

you know they view texas as a very

red state which isn't necessarily true

we're kind of

purpley pinky whatever but

you know they say that you know all


things they go against in terms of human


you know are going to be distinguished


extinguished you know like there's going

to be you know going back to this whole

period of racism and everything else and

this has been a difficult thing for me


you know for for all the uh you know

hispanic representation we have in texas

you will find few people more pro texas

than hispanic texans i mean they

love texas absolutely i mean hispanics

in texas they

love texas and they know it's

you know it's the same thing you know

black people in texas you know african


when they've done the polls in terms of

how they've been treated

fairly in terms of job opportunities and

everything else

texas treats minorities

better than almost every other state in

the union we don't just kind of

throw out these banners of oh yeah we're

against discrimination blah blah blah

you know our facts and figures are down

there they are now to the mast and when

we are

the least racist state in the union in

terms of a melting pot

you know i know that was supposed to be

the whole um

you know thing for the united states but

in texas here

i mean it really is i mean everybody

here doesn't know your black

hispanic asian whatever they're proud to

be texan

and you know all the white people here

we love how hispanic

black asian brothers sisters

we love you you're texans and that's one

of the biggest

you know i think people outside of texas

you know they try and criticize us and

say oh it'll be

you know if you're not a christian

you're not welcome if you're not white

you're not welcome

but that's the biggest bunch of bs ever

i mean we

freaking love you because you're hearing

your texan

well look here here's here's the bottom

line and anyone who doesn't acknowledge

the fact

that texas is the melting pot that

everyone believed america was

uh it's just they're ignorant they they

don't know us their their prejudice

against us or whatever but

but look i think it's important to

understand that this issue of texas

independence not just texas itself

you know and i say this because people

like to couch the texan issue as a

republican issue

right and what we have said since day

one is that it is a trans partisan issue


it's a transcendent issue and transcends

above the normal

partisan politics and a testament to

that fact

excuse me a testament to that is that

the demographics of our

organization more closely resemble the

demographics of texas as a whole

than either major political party and

and what that tells you is is that our

message resonates

regardless of your ethnic background

regardless of your socioeconomic


we view one another as texans okay and

in all of us within the tnm

those that are in and those that will be

in before this is all over with

they all acknowledge the fact that a

texan is a texan is the texan

regardless of any of those things that


the politicians the pollsters and the

pundits use to divide us

right we we won't as texans we won't be

divided by those things

uh and we can as you know what's

what's amazing about texas is the fact

that everyone who gets here

wants to adopt the the tax and mindset


want to adopt the dress and the speech

and and everything else and all of those

people that come here

they they bring their flavor you know i

i get the best vietnamese food in the

world right here in southeast texas

and i love it and i g and i get it from

a guy who wears a cowboy hat and has a

thicker accent than i do uh a thicker

texas accent

so you know i mean it's it's an amazing


that gets a bad rap from people who just

hate us because they ain't us

and i totally agree with you totally

agree with you

so uh we passed this

right uh we let's

let's just pretend right now that it

passes day one

what's it look like well

i i i can't see a scenario where they

can win

and i'll tell you why i mean the

campaign strategy is quite simple

uh for us we intend to mount

a major campaign i mean look we're

statewide right now

uh advertising i mean we're our campaign

has already started to get this across

the finish line

this legislation and then ultimately get

the referendum across the finish line

but but here's what it boils down to we

can make our case

for why we should leave and they can't

make a case why we should stay

here's the question after many years i

got sick and tired of

being asked to defend every piece of of


of our goal for texas independence and

so one day we decided to flip the tables

and start asking this question if texas

was a free and independent nation today

in every respect we had our own money

we had our own passports our own

embassies overseas

we we govern our affairs like any other

self-governing independent nation and

you were asked the question

should texas join the union what would

your vote be

would you vote to join


i mean that's a hard note for me


that guess what it's a hard note from

everyone i i mean i literally

you know started asking that question

and i haven't found a person who said

absolutely yes

because because the question is what

what is your selling point right is it


nearly 30 trillion dollars worth of debt

or is it the fact that we're going to

immediately be crushed under 180 000

pages of federal laws rules and

regulations that if we printed them out

and stacked them up would be taller than

the san jacinto monument which by the

way is taller than the washington


you know what what is that selling point

and the fact of the matter is if you

would not vote to join

then why in the world would you ever

vote to stay hey

i i joined the union and i got this

crappy t-shirt

and seventy thousand dollars in federal

debt yeah

so daniel w we're getting near the end

and we certainly appreciate you

spending this time with us but if if you


one minute to convince everybody in


here's why you need to do this i i want

you to take

one unadulterated minute and just say

hey here's here's that one minute


right now why you need to whether you're

like me

who is lived in texas his whole life

whether you've got somebody like the

wolf who was born in texas

went overseas came back whether you're a


that decided hey i want to get rid of my

tiny little house

and sell that and buy a nice place over

here in texas

no matter what it that one minute give


a nice one minute

commercial as far as why this is


why everybody needs to be focused on


why we need to go ahead and say

it's time for texas to lead the union

the floor is yours my friend

look the the the bottom line is is that

whether someone is is

in favor of texas or against texas or on

the bubble

about texas the fact of the matter is is

that every one of us

at a very fundamental and visceral level

understand that something is wrong

something is wrong with governance we're

being crushed under the weight

of those federal laws rules and


we understand that politics has gotten

poisonous from the federal level

pushing its way down into texas uh and

we all

i think it in a at a at a fundamental

level again

understand that a moment of decision

is really at hand for all of us as


do we make a decision to have a


about governing ourselves or do we do


and allow the federal government to

continue to spin out of control

to destroy jobs to destroy livelihoods

to destroy our freedom i mean is that

really what we have it

is a decision point for us and we have

an opportunity right now

as millions of texans are coming out of

the woodwork

to support not just tax it but

ultimately supporting having this

conversation for those people who are


so my my i i would say that that

really my my passion for

right now is that we all

table the texas discussion and have

the real discussion which is as a people

should the decision be put to us

are we smart enough are we capable


to have the conversation and take the


or are we what the political

establishment think of us

and too stupid to make our own decision


i'm telling you that's what they think

about us so

i'm just going to encourage everyone to

go to our website at tnm dot me slash


and get your questions answered no pitch

all the information is there

ask your question get your answers we

will guide you through the process

and uh and we'll help you make your


now uh you mentioned the website

once again it just give us a little

a little more blurb i mean you got the

website but

any other ways to reach out to y'all


all that good stuff we we want to make

sure that we get that out there as well


yeah and look for for those that are

just beyond inquiring and are ready to

get in the game

you know ready to help us make texan

happen uh

obviously if you go to our website i'm

going to encourage you to

register your support you can do that

right on our main page at tnm.m

so tnm.me but also become a member

t m dot me slash join if you can help i

mean as i said we're on a statewide

campaign right now we've just

executed another statewide media buy for

radio ads

trying to connect with as many people as

possible but frankly the

the absolute best way that we have been

able to cut through the noise

uh through the social media censorship

which has been real for us

is for each one of us who believe in


to reach out to our friends our

neighbors our co-workers and everyone


and plug them in to the tnm i i do it

every day out there as an ambassador for


and every one of our members and

supporters are encouraged to do exactly

the same

come connect with us well thank you so


daniel for joining us on this episode of

the wolf and shepherd

and please reach out to daniel with

any questions and this is something


you know kind of passionate to us and

we're so thankful that you joined us on

this podcast

and hopefully here in maybe i don't know

not that long we're gonna have like a a

victory drink

that maybe maybe this actually you know

happens i mean i've been waiting for


longer than i've been waiting for i-35

to get fixed

so just stop waiting and start working

stop wait and start work well thanks

everybody for tuning in and we'll catch

you on the next episode of the wolf in

the shepherd



Daniel Miller

Daniel Miller is President of the Texas Nationalist Movement and has been an outspoken advocate for Texas independence since 1996. As the head of one of the largest and most influential political organizations in Texas, Miller has extensively researched and engaged the issue of self-determination, not just for Texas, but as part of a growing global trend.

He has been featured on every major news network and been interviewed by every major newspaper in Texas and around the world. A featured guest on FoxNews, CNN, CNBC, BBC News, RT-TV and many other news outlets, Miller has been a vocal proponent of a fundamental reexamination of the relationship between all states in the Federal union.